Lack:     Good afternoon.  My name is Adina Lack.  I’m the archivist and the special collections librarian here at Randall Library.   I have the privilege today to interview for our visual oral history project Grace M. Burton.  Please state your name.

Burton:    Hi there, Grace Burton.

Lack:    Thank you and may I call you Dr. Burton?

Burton:    Yes, that would be just fine.

Lack:    I will start off by telling you we’re very pleased to have you here as a faculty member from the School of Education now in phased retirement.  We’ll hear more about that.  Can you start off by telling me where were you born and where did you grow up?

Burton:    Well the answer to that is the same for both, Woonsocket, Rhode Island.  It’s the northern part of Rhode Island, not the south where most people know with the yachts and the mansions and all.  This was an old mill town and I grew up there, stayed there throughout my high school years.  Went to school just over the border in Connecticut and haven’t really been back to live in Rhode Island since.

Lack:    Your accent sounds like you’re not from around here.

Burton:    It stays with me. 

Lack:    Where did you go to school?

Burton:    Got my Bachelor’s degree at a small women’s college called Annhurst College, no longer exists, went out when a lot of those colleges were phasing out in the 70’s.  I got my master’s and my doctorate from the University of Connecticut.  Got the latter in 1973. 

Lack:    What did you do following that?

Burton:    Well before that I had some teaching jobs, classroom teaching in Connecticut and in Dallas, Texas.  Then went home to Connecticut, had some children and while I was home with the children did a lot of substitute teaching, graded compositions for a private school to keep a little bit of money rolling in and then went back and got a master’s degree.  Then I taught back at the institute I got my Bachelor’s degree from, taught in the math department there.  Then after a few years went back and got a doctorate and then worked there in that same area as a…we called it the math lady at that time…I was the math resource teacher for a K-6 school, a model school.

Lack:    From what I understand, that’s been your specialty.

Burton:    Yes, math is what I do.

Lack:    Were you a math secondary teacher?

Burton:    When I started yes because the institution I was at didn't have any elementary programs.  It just had a secondary.  So although my heart has always been in elementary, that wasn’t an option, had to go where I got the scholarship and that was secondary.

Lack:    So you pursued your Ph.D. at…

Burton:    University of Connecticut.

Lack:    Oh, U-Conn.

Burton:    Yes, U-Conn.

Lack:    You graduated from there when?

Burton:    In 1973 and while I was there I was teaching math methods courses as just part of my program and that’s what I’ve done pretty much since, teach math methods courses.

Lack:    What was your job after graduating in ’73?

Burton:    That’s when I went and worked as the math resource person.  I also taught math methods courses as part of my position there.  We were a model school for Eastern Connecticut State College in Willamantic and so I taught the math and then watched them student teach and worked with the kids as well.  Did that for a year.  It was a fill-in job.  They needed someone only for a year because they were phasing out the model school.  They’d gotten to be too expensive for universities to keep up so that was its last year of existence and I went to teach at the University of Maryland-College Park after that.

I did that for a year and then my husband got a job out in Utah and it seemed to me best that I go out to Utah.  So I gave up that job and looked for employment in Utah.  There wasn’t anything in college so I worked with the government as a sex discrimination specialist for a couple of years out there.  That was very different.

Well, since my dissertation was about sex differences, it wasn’t too outside my field.  I worked with six states out there.  Title IX was just being introduced at the time and so I worked with school districts to help them implement Title IX, very interesting to do.

Lack:    You liked that.

Burton:    Yes, it was a challenge.  It was a whole new part of education.  I had not worked with administrators before, I’d worked with teachers and students.  That was a different kind of a job.

Lack:    It helps to see both sides.

Burton:    It really did, yeah.

Lack:    When did you come to Wilmington?

Burton:    In ’77.  I was there for two years continually looking for a job in math education because that’s my love.  There was an ad in the paper, in the Chronicle, and I applied, came for an interview, got it, here I am.  Did not even know where Wilmington was, just it was a job in my field.

Lack:    It looks totally different from Utah.

Burton:    It does and from Rhode Island too.

Lack:    Who was the chair…

Burton:    We had a chair.  That was the right term.  We were not yet a school.  We were a department, only shortly before that having split, we used to be the Department of Psychology and Education as Dr. Wright will probably tell you because she was in that department.  Then we became the Department of Education.  Roy Harkin who had come here a year and a half before I did was chair at that time. 

It was a very small department, seven people I think.  The year I came they hired three people.  That was really their first move into hiring all the folks that we now have, Noel Jones, Marcee Meyers as she was then and myself all came that year and all three of us are still here.  So that probably says something for how we like the place. 

Lack:    That’s great.  I hope to talk to the other two next.  I’ve seen Noel Jones around. 

Burton:    He was one that had other jobs like I had before he came.  I think he was just finishing up his doctorate when he came here.  And Marcee was just brand new out of her doctorate program so this is the only place she’s ever taught at the college level. 

Lack:    Are either of them on phased retirement?

Burton:    No, I believe Dr. Jones has some plans, but I don’t know what they are and I don’t think Marcee has yet. 

Lack:    So you mentioned the department was very small when you came.  What else did you observe about Wilmington?

Burton:    Well Wilmington itself was pretty small.  I don’t know how long you’ve lived here, but there wasn’t a mall.  College Road was two lanes I think, it may have been four.  Land was still relatively easy to get.   A lot more wooded area, lot fewer condominiums, lots and lots less traffic and all has just grown by leaps and bounds.

Lack:    What has contributed to the School of Education growing so much do you think?

Burton:    Well we’ve been able to have more faculty so we’ve been able to serve more people.  There may be more people, just more people living in the area.  We have a full program up in Onslow County and that draws a lot of people.  There seems to be no shortage of people wanting to teach, luckily because we sure need every one of them out there.

Lack:    That’s for sure.  So you came and specialized in teaching math.

Burton:    I teach math methods.  I teach people how to teach math.  My main love is for the very youngest of children, but when I first came, North Carolina had licensure that was K-3, 4-9 and then secondary.  Since then they’ve changed to K-6, middle school and secondary so I taught when I first came both the early K-3 and up through grade 9.  But I’m really not interested in the upper grades.  I really like the very littlest kids. 

Lack:    What do you like about that?

Burton:    It’s the time when you have a chance to make a difference.  You get them off on the right foot.  You know, well begun, half done kind of thinking.

Lack:    Have you always been a math person?

Burton:    Yes.

Lack:    You enjoyed it, it always came easy for you?

Burton:    After high school it did.  Up through high school it wasn’t particularly an interest of mine.  It was something I had to do, but in college I was torn between being an English major and a math major and I chose math with a minor in English which has served me well because now math is very much interested in writing, communication.  Although I didn't know it way back in ’58, it was a good decision.

Lack:    So now math is tied in with…

Burton:    Yeah, math major professional group is NCTM, National Council of Teachers of Mathematics and they came out with principles and guidelines and there are five content, what you’d expect, algebra, geometry, measurement and that kind of thing and five process standards.  So they’re saying teachers ought to teach the content, but they need to teach the process too.  One of those processes is communication, written and oral.

I bet when you were in school, you didn't talk much about how to do math with your neighbors.  You were probably told do your own work; it’s cheating to talk to somebody.  We’re saying, nah, human beings talk when they’ve got a problem so why don’t we start them talking about math problems.  It’s a human thing to do. 

Lack:    That’s interesting.  I think that would help.

Burton:    Yeah, if you’re not sure about what you’re doing…I’m sure in your position if you’ve got something that you’re not sure of, you go and find somebody that knows or you try it and you say am I on the right track here so why do we withhold that from kids trying to learn a subject which is very hard I think to learn for a lot of people.

Lack:    That’s interesting.  We’re sort of going on to some of the ways you taught your classes.  I’d like to hear, you were awarded for your teaching?

Burton:    Yes.

Lack:    What was your award?

Burton:    In 1999, I got the Board of Trustees award and that was the only award there was on campus at that time.  Then I can’t remember the date exactly, when we instituted the award that’s a three year award.

Lack:    Is that the Chancellor’s award or no?

Burton:    No, the Chancellor’s award is at the school level, but this is across the university and they award three people for three years and I’m thinking Board of Trustees.  No, that’s the other one.

Lack:    Board of Governors?

Burton:    No, that’s the one that’s statewide.  I cannot remember, but it was a three year award and there were three of us who got it that first year. 

Lack:    Yet before the interview started you were talking about how you felt the need for …

Burton:    Yeah, we were sent, Roger Lowry and I to a statewide conference that was taking place out at the NCAT center although it wasn’t part of that.  It was just a convenient place to have it and it was on teaching excellence.  People shared how each campus rewarded excellent teachers on their campus.  When we came back from that, we asked Dr. Leutze for a few moments of his time to share this information since he’d paid for us to go.

We told him about some of the things people do like putting the names of the rewardees in the graduation program or in the catalog and then having a cash award, having a medallion and I guess he liked the ideas because he put them into practice.

Lack:    Great.  Now the Board of Trustees award, did you know you were nominated?

Burton:    No, that was a total surprise.

Lack:    Do students nominate?

Burton:    Anyone can nominate, faculty, students, chair and I don’t know who did.  I would imagine my chair.

Lack:    And the award is designed for people who have made an impact on the students for teaching.  I have to get these awards straight in my mind.

Burton:    Well I wish I could remember the other, I’m embarrassed that I can’t, but there you go.

Lack:    I’ll have to look it up.  What have students told you they enjoy about your class?

Burton:    My enthusiasm, practicality.  They like that I don’t mind that they don’t know math because you don’t have to know it when you come in.  You just have to know it when you go out.  You have to know how to teach it.  The class and the people that now teach that class, for me it’s EDN 322 that I’m thinking of which is the methods of teaching math K-6, the class is designed with the person who’s not happy to have to take this class in mind.

We’ve got too many teachers out there who at the first possible chance say oh no, we don’t need to do math today.  We had a fire drill, let’s give up math.  Or they’ll say, open up your books and do it yourself.  I mean they don’t enjoy teaching it.  That just passes on to kids, that there’s something about this you shouldn’t like.  So we try very hard to make it a class where they can go out and feel confident and competent that they can do it.  So there’s no such thing as a dumb question.

We try to actually bring the materials, we don’t try, we actually do bring materials in.  We bring children’s books in to show the connection with children’s books.  I mean we actually have them doing what they’ll be doing and they like that modeling.  I think it gives them a …oh I remember when she did Pigs will be Pigs, I remember how she used that, how that was addition of money.  Then if they want to do that in the classroom, they’ve at least been part of a group that’s done that.

Lack:    That’s a great idea to bring in books from other subject matter.

Burton:    Oh yeah, children’s books because how can you not like a kid’s book?  I mean they’re so wonderful these days. 

Lack:    And they apply the math.

Burton:    Yep … and we like them to see that the math is there so we do encourage them to look at a course of study.  It’s not that it’s an all fluff course, but I think you can serve up a meal that’s either enticing or doesn’t meet your needs and we try to make that course really enticing because we know math anxiety is rampant in the world and it starts very young.

Most kids come to school, you know, not knowing they shouldn’t like math unless their older brothers or sisters told them that.  By fourth grade when you hit those tough fractions, people begin turning away.  It’s too important a subject.  We need them to have the math they need to do whatever they’re going to do in life and they don’t know what that’s going to be.

Lack:    Sure, it’s good not to be turned off and have that option open.

Burton:    They also like the fact that as a New Englander, I’m very thrifty so I don’t say you have to have these expensive manipulatives.  I always show them inexpensive ways to do the same thing with something.  Like you can buy very expensive base 10 materials, sticks and little cubes and so on, but you can get the same effect if you glue beans onto a bean stick and use bean sticks and beans.  That’s something teachers can afford and I think that’s important.  Teachers don’t have much money to spend in their classrooms.

Lack:    Sure, sure, so they’ve enjoyed that and they find it very practical. 

Burton:    I think they like the practicality of it.

Lack:    Well as an archivist, you may be familiar with the collection that we have of faculty scholarships.  I have a lot of articles, you’ve been very prolific.

Burton:    I believe in what I do and I think when you believe in something, you just want to tell people about it.  So yes I do a lot of writing or did a lot of writing.  That kind of went down to a lower level when I became department chair because when you’re department chair, you’re writing, but you’re not writing stuff in your own profession.  You’re writing reports, more administrative kinds of things.

So I haven’t been doing as much with that although I’ve kept up working with a textbook company which I still am doing.  I was department chair from ’96 and this is my second year not as department chair.  Until August of 2000.

Lack:    I keep forgetting that they have chairs of the two divisions.

Burton:    We went into being a school, and I can’t remember the date for that, and Roy Harkin went from being the department chair to being the dean and at that point, then we had two chairs.  The chair of the Department of Curricular Studies at that time was Hathia Hayes.  She was our first chair and Eleanor Wright was our second and I was the third.

Lack:    That was quite a bit of administrative work.

Burton:    Yeah.

Lack:    What were some of the subjects you wrote on?

Burton:    Well I’ve written a methods book for early children called “Towards a Good Beginning” and we used it in the course for a long time.  It got to be not current because I had moved onto other things.  I generally write about ways to develop concepts, place value, multiplication concepts—whatever--with elementary school.

I’ve also written a lot about math anxiety and sex differences in mathematics.  We called them sex differences then.  The term now is gender differences, but I use the term that was current when I was writing.  So that’s kind of what I do a lot of.

Lack:    Did you collaborate with anybody in the math department?

Burton:    No, not with the math department.  I’ve collaborated with a lot of people, with Marcee on two special education articles that we wrote about teaching math and special education, with colleagues across the country on a whole variety of subjects just whatever we both happened to be interested in, but never worked with anybody here in the math department. 

Lack:    So you enjoy writing.

Burton:    I do.  Right now I’m writing lesson plans for NCTM’s Illumination site.  That’s in the Marco Polo set of curricular areas.  Carol Midgett and I have been collaborating on that for a year and are about to gear up and start that up again.  It has just a phenomenal amount of hits and we’re writing lesson plans teachers can download and use, no copyright on them.  They come complete with worksheets and whatever and they’re all designed to help the teacher push a little bit further than what they do for textbook.

Lack:    That’s great.  Illuminations?

Burton:    Illuminations at the NCTM site.  So I spent last year writing a lot of those.  I was up for a challenge and that was a new way to write, to try to envision the teacher and to actually take them step-by-step.  When you’re writing textbooks, it’s a different way of writing and this would be something that the teacher would take, just follow it along. 

Lack:    This is more of a lesson plan directly for that.

Burton:    This is a lesson plan day by day with things in there like reflection as well as what they’re going to do, questions they could ask the children and reflections they could ask themselves after the lesson.

Lack:    Have you been involved as an administrator and teacher in the graduate education area?

Burton:    Oh yes, in fact once I got to be chair, I hardly ever got to teach undergraduate because as chair you have a smaller teaching load and we needed people to teach graduates.  So the courses I teach there might be math, but typically are not mathematics.  So I teach a course in curriculum which is what I’m doing this semester.  I teach another class called educational environments, which is really an application of educational psychology to the classroom.  How do you make the classroom a welcoming place is the theme of that one which is a fun thing to do.

Lack:    What graduate program is that for?

Burton:    Well it’s in the elementary program, but I get a lot of people in reading, a lot of people in the curriculum instruction from the other department taken as an elective.

Lack:    Watson School also has the Master’s of Art in teaching?

Burton:    Yes, and that’s for secondary people and occasionally I have one or two of those come into either one of those two courses, but typically not.  Typically they’re doing other things.  That’s housed in the other department.

Lack:    That’s secondary?

Burton:    Yeah, that’s secondary.

Lack:    People have bachelor’s in other fields.

Burton:    Or they could be secondary certification holders and then come back and get their master’s.  The one that I think you’re thinking of for people who have bachelor’s in their other field is called lateral entry and we do that.  I’m also involved with a program called NC-Teach and that’s who those folks are.  That’s a statewide program and we had a site here last summer and we’ll probably have a site here this summer where people applied.  They went through interviews. 

We taught them an intensive six-week program last summer, like 8:30 to 4:30 every day, five days a week and then we see them every other Saturday from 8:30 to 1:30 as well.  That’s at the graduate people and those are people that have had no education or minimal education.

Lack:    What do you think of those programs or those ways of recruiting?

Burton:    Well I rather have them go through the regular four-year program, but I’d rather have that than let’s go on the street corner and see who we can pull in as the retention rate is pitiful for those people.  They don’t know what they’re teaching maybe and they certainly don’t know how to teach it. 

It’s hard enough for our NC-Teach people.  We had them here on Saturday.  They’re still struggling because they’ve had to learn in a few weeks what we allow other people to learn over a period of three years with an intensive student teaching.  I mean yes, they’re mature students and yes, they certainly know their subject, but there’s a lot more to teaching than going in and knowing your chemistry or history. 

Lack:    Right and with UNCW having a very strong teacher education program for bachelors, I think that makes it unique because I understand there’s no teacher education program at Chapel Hill, right?

Burton:    I don’t think there is at the bachelor’s level, but we do a lot of teachers.  I believe we’re the third largest supplier of teachers to North Carolina and we certainly are not the third largest institution, but we have a lot of people here.  I think we have a very good program.  I think they work very hard and I think it pays off with the retention rate.

Lack:    I don’t know if it’s possible to answer this, but what is a typical undergraduate here, is there one?

Burton:    I don’t know if there’s one.  I think they might be different in the School of Education than across campus.

Lack:    That’s what I meant, School of Education. 

Burton:    Well they tend to be very committed.  You don’t go into teaching for the big bucks, that’s for sure.  The people that would choose to go into a service profession, I think our people would be pretty much like the people in the School of Nursing.  They’ve chosen a service profession; money is not the major object.  Respect isn’t even their major object; you don’t get a lot of that.  But they love children, they love their subject. 

They want to bring those two together in a positive interaction.  Some of them have liked school all of their lives themselves.  Others didn't come from that place.  They didn't particularly find school a good place, but they think they’d like to make it a good place.  So I think we get a pretty dedicated, pretty hard-working group.  Of course we’ll make comments among ourselves about that, but I think generally they’re very committed.  They’re quite serious.  They get their work in on time.  They show up because those are the kinds of things they’re going to have to do as teachers.  You’ve got 20 kids waiting for you, you can’t decide you’re going to sleep in.

I had the fun last year of teaching sophomores for the first time.  I taught the education psychology course which we call EDN203 and there’s quite a difference between the sophomores and the folks that actually then choose to go into the School of Education.  They’re still learning study skills and study habits and by the time we get them, they’ve had to have a 2.7 average to get in.  They’ve had to pass some tests so there were some hurdles and those that passed the hurdles are pretty dedicated to teaching.

Lack:    Are you finding that you still have a good number of non-traditional students?

Burton:    Oh yeah, we have a lot of non-traditional students, women mostly.  We have a very small male contingent over in King Hall.  They find it good as a choice for when their kids are in school, their working hours parallel their children’s working hours.  That seems to be kind of a deciding factor.  We have always had a lot of non-traditional students.

Lack:    Do you find that people who go into education tend to be outgoing?

Burton:    Many of them are, but surprisingly there are some that in classes are very quiet.  But I’ve seen those same people teaching and it’s just the presence of their peers that seems to be tough for them.

Lack:    But once they’re in front of a class…

Burton:    Yeah and we try to give them experiences from their first classes with us on so that they don’t get to that final capstone and say oh my goodness, I don’t like this.  Occasionally we get a few people that decide that, but they’re very, very few.  So even someone who is very reserved can be very effective as a teacher.  There’s not a personality type that teachers tend to be.

Lack:    That’s interesting to know because it seems like teachers would have to be quite outgoing and quite structured.

Burton:    Yeah, they do certainly have to be structured.  The ones that aren’t won’t make it.

Lack:    Is this for public school or anywhere?

Burton:    Anywhere I think.

Lack:    That makes sense.  I was wondering if I could ask who were some of the people in your department or perhaps outside your department in the entire university who you have known and have been influential or important to you?

Burton:    Ah, well I want to start with somebody that’s not in the university and not in my department and that would be my mentor Vincent Glennon, deceased some years now, but he was the person at the University of Connecticut where I got my doctorate.  He was very influential and our styles couldn’t be further apart.  He was a very reserved gentleman and yet there was something about him that made you think about what it is that you’re about and why you’re about that.

I found my doctorate program instructors very, very important because I find that the philosophy of teaching that I wrote back then, I pull it out now and say not much change.  But if it had been the years before that doctorate program, they would have been very, very different.  So I had some very good people. 

The other person who was very influential was John Goodman.  John was the first one that made me think it didn't have to be sit in rows to learn math and he didn't run his classes that way.  I thought that was so liberating and really changed how I thought about teaching math.  In the class I took with him, I wrote a philosophy and in fact I talked about it in my class.  We’re doing the philosophy unit in my curriculum class and I pull it out and say, “Write yours, this is mine”.  And it really hasn’t changed very much.

Lack:    That’s good.

Burton:    Yeah, they were good people.  Around here, I think it’s more generally the whole environment particularly when we were smaller and you really knew everybody.  Used to be a lot of talking, used to be, you know, Friday afternoons, we’d get together and just talk about the week.  That was back in the very early days.  So there was just something about being in an environment where you could be who you were and for most of us, we were the only one…I was the only math person.

Lack:    What about now?

Burton:    Now I’m still just moving out of being the only full time math person.  Tracy Hargrove has come and Tracy was a student of mine years back when.  We did a national search and she rose to the top like cream and she’s excellent.  I mentored her last year and I’m working with her again this year.  Super, super person, so she’s a full time.  Karen Chandler has been teaching the 322 class for us as an instructor for quite a long time. 

We’ve had a whole variety of people, all of whom worked with me and used my syllabus when they first came.  Dana Adams, Renee Lemmons-Matney, both of those have now moved on to full-time jobs.  Dana works at the Teach Center and Renee is at the new school, the charter school here in town.  So we’ve had several people, Becky Walker taught it last year.  This semester, Maggie Williams, a former student of mine is teaching it so we have a cadre of part-time people, but Tracy will be the only full-time person.

Lack:    It was a much smaller, intimate group.

Burton:    Yeah, there was one person who did social studies and one person that did science.  It was very different.  So we wanted to collaborate, we weren’t collaborating with our own. We were collaborating across subject areas, which is great.

Lack:    One person I had interviewed recently was Paz Bartolome.

Burton:    Oh yes, we share an office now.

Lack:    Oh really?  That was great, talking to her.

Burton:    She had been here seven years when I came and I said seven years, what a long time to be anywhere (laughter).  And now I’ve been here a lot more than seven years.  She was one of that original group.  She was here and the Hayes had just come the year before.  Jim Applefield had come the semester before and Roy the semester before the Hayes and Eleanor was here and Calvin Doss and Harold Hulon and Betty Stike.  And that’s who we had.  We had maybe 25 student teachers in a year.

Lack:    How many now?

Burton:    About close to 100 a semester, maybe more in our department.  The other department also has student teachers.

Lack:    In the K-6.

Burton:    And middle school and special education is in my department as well and early childhood.  They were all curricular studies.  More people could tell you the exact figures because I’ve kind of been out of it for two years now.  Yeah, better than 100 so it was very different.

Lack:    Do you miss some things about administration?

Burton:    Not about administration (laughter), no.  I love teaching and what administration does is take that time away from teaching.  Teaching is what I was born to do.  So no, I don’t miss administration.  That’s important and I learned how important it is by doing it and it needs to happen.  I think I was a fair to middling administrator, but it wasn’t where my heart was.

Lack:    It’s encouraging to see people who just love teaching.

Burton:    And student teaching.  I haven’t done that for a while and that’s such fun too because you see the people going in and they’re so scared in the beginning and they really prose after that.  I’ve had the joy of seeing several of my student teachers go on, get their doctorates and go on to really responsible positions.  That’s wonderful.  There’s nothing like that.

Lack:    That’s great.  Are you in touch with some alumni then?

Burton:    Oh yeah, Buddy Gamble was teaching here until this last year.  He was a student teacher of mine.  Got his doctorate and had to go elsewhere and he’s having a great time in Texas.  Renee Lemmons- Matney that I mentioned earlier, was somebody I had as a master’s student.  Dana Adams also.  Edie Skipper is another one that is now up in Pender County heading up the Headstart curricular area.  Tracy Hargrove is one of my alumni.  Yeah, I keep up with them.

Lack:    That’s great.

Burton:    A lot of the part-time people are people that I’ve had in class.

Lack:    As a faculty member I guess as time went on, you also were on a lot of committees.

Burton:    I’ve been on committees since the first day I got here (laughter).  I was in the Senate my first year here and I was on a committee to look at committees.  It was the committee on committees (laughter).  The one I’ve been on most has been the Parking Appeals Committee.  I don’t know how many years I was on that.  I say 20, it couldn’t have been 20, but was more like 10 or 15 because I kept going on and going off. 

Lack:    Does that take a lot of time?

Burton:    No, it takes time in batches, but it’s not terribly time consuming.

Lack:    They like to keep you on it I guess.

Burton:    Yeah and it’s an interesting committee as committees go (laughter).  You do hear some bizarre excuses as to why they just had to park there (laughter). 

Lack:    And then you make a decision.

Burton:    Yes, we usually say sorry, I don’t care about your excuse; you can’t park in the handicap.  That’s it or sorry, yes, you had your light flashing, but flashing lights, you’re still parked (laughter).

Lack:    Well as a teacher I guess you’re used to screening out excuses.

Burton:    Yeah, I guess you get that way, but that was a good committee.  I’ve been on lots of accreditation committees and been on the library committee.  I’ve been on the bookstore committee.  I’ve been on just lots and lots of them.  And on some of the student hearings, I’ve been on those a few times, the calendar committee.  So if it was a committee, I probably did it.  Been in the Senate also quite a little bit.  And then of course the department has lots and lots of ad hoc committees to do its business.

One of the things about phased retirement is you don’t have to be on committees (laughter).

Lack:    That’s another incentive.

Burton:    That’s a lovely incentive.

Lack:    And you teach half time.

Burton:    You teach half time.  I chose, unlike Paz that teaches the 04, I teach two courses each semester.  That’s good because I’m also doing this Illuminations work and I’m also working with the publisher.

Lack:    On the textbooks?

Burton:    On the textbooks, yes.  I write children’s math textbooks.  It keeps me plenty busy.

Lack:    Are people excited about the building?

Burton:    Oh yes, I’m sure we have it already filled up (laughter).  When we looked at it originally, three floors, so much space, but we keep bringing in new faculty and they keep needing offices and we keep adding people, you know, coming in to get degrees.  We get grants and we have to service those.  That building is not going to have a lot of extra room by the time we get there, but it’s beautiful. 

I was on the planning committee for that.  The architects were just grand.  They listened to everybody.  I mean every faculty member had a chance to go in and talk about what they wanted.  Finally toward the end, the architects said, you don’t have to say it, you want more storage because everybody did.  It’s really tough over in King Hall.  We have underneath desks, in closets, you name it, and we’ve got every piece of space used so we’re looking for that wonderful new storage. 

Lack:    You mentioned grants.  I have read about the huge grants that have been awarded over there.

Burton:    Well education is just, you know, it’s not a need that’s going to go away and people have good ideas about how to deal with that.  I have been writing them, but I’ve been helping write.  One of my first grants here was working with public school teachers at a grade level.  It was grade 2.  I had the joy of having the same group of 10 teachers all year long.  We would just meet frequently and talk about how to teach math and they would go try it and would come back and talk about it.  It was grand to have that kind of continuing contact with somebody. 

Lack:   Oh yeah, and then you got their feedback.  Was that the first grant that you wrote?

Burton:    Yeah, did that here.  That was renewed a few times, that was a state grant.  I worked with the Job Ready state grant with Eleanor Wright to particularly work with middle school people because at that level, kids are beginning to think about what career they would like and beginning to get those habits that would help them along or would get in the way.  We worked on that.  I worked on the NC Teach.  I worked on that last summer and I’m following the kids through this year.

I worked a little bit on this newest grant that you probably saw in the paper, Transition to Teaching is the name of that grant.  Dean Barlow was the writer of that so I did a little bit of writing and editing on that, but not very much.  She really was the one in charge.  But yes, we’ve always got things coming along. 

Lack:    It sounds like it, that’s for sure.  Is there anything else that you’d like to cover?  Memories or anything you remember…I guess you were here when Dr. Wagoner was here.  Did you get to know him?

Burton:    A little bit.  We were smaller then so as a smaller faculty, you did get to meet him and I had some conversations with him about various things that were going on so yeah.  I guess I won’t see the newest chancellor whoever that will be, although I won’t be going far.  I live right around the corner practically so I think I’ll still be around even when phased retirement is done.

Lack:    When is phased retirement done?

Burton:    This is my second year so I have one more year of phased retirement.

Lack:    Yeah, so you’ll be here.

Burton:    Yeah, I don’t think I’ll be gone.  If they’re still getting all those grants, they’ll need somebody to help them out on a contract basis and I’ve heard you can do that on the state, come back as a contract for a particular job.

Lack:    Oh I see. 

Burton:    I enjoy it so I don’t see as long as my health continues okay, I don’t see any reason not to do that.

Lack:    You’ve had some conversations with James Leutze?

Burton:    Yes and he’s just been delightful to work with.  I think he’s a very good role model.  I’m sorry to lose him, but I remember when he came.  He said he’d be here 10 years in his position and he stayed a little bit longer than 10.  There’ll be a lot of changes.  I’m right now on the search committee for Bob Fry’s replacement so there will be a new person.  The provost will be new, the chancellor will be new.  That’s a lot of change for a university to be thinking about.

Lack:    Yeah, that’s true.  People will be moving on. 

Burton:    This is a wonderful place to be.  I’ve been happy to be involved with it and hope to continue to be involved with it.

Lack:    That’s wonderful.  It’s good that you have positive associations.  How about the library?

Burton:    Oh, the library is great (laughter).  Even when it used to be half the size it is now, I’m sure you must have seen pictures or heard stories about the year when we were plastic wall on one side.  It used to just the last half, that side of the library, and there was a woman who sat at a checkout desk and checked the books out.  One woman who just sat there and that was her job.  The library opened up on the other side.

Well they decided to double the size of the library.  Well you can’t shut the library down for a year so they tore out the wall on this side of the library and put up big plastic strips while they built this library.  They then took everything from that side, moved it into the new side, kept the plastic strips while they remodeled the old side.  So it’s wonderful to get back to the whole.

Lack:    That was an adventure.

Burton:    Yes, the library has really been a grand resource.  I was on the TOC, table of contents program.  I use your videos a lot.  Any book I ever wanted was easy to get.  It’s been delightful and I was on the library committee so I got to see some of the inner workings.  You have a wonderful director now.

Lack:    Yes, Sherman Hayes.

Burton:    Yeah, he’s great.

Lack:    Did you make use of the curriculum material center?

Burton:    Yes and often used the children’s books that are up there.  Yes, take those and bring them to class.  And the curriculum material center we think is going to be housed in the new building and that will be grand, to have the education lab and the CMC together.  That will really be nice because then the kids can go to one place and get all that they need and the security will be better.  Our stuff walks out of the lab sometimes.  We don’t have the kind of buzzer that you have as they leave, but we will.  We talked a lot about how to make that still a friendly place, but just safeguard the materials that are so expensive.

Lack:    The education lab is for the tutoring.

Burton:    The lab is where the tutoring is, but we have a lot of materials there as well so a lot of kids that are going to do their lesson plans can choose to sit in either place, over here or there.  So it will be nice when it’s a place on the first floor with good security, bigger, with a full kitchen for us.  That will be very nice.  Yes, kids do a lot of cooking as part of their math and part of reading too.

The other important thing for us is that there will be a classroom for our special education transitional students, that is public school students who are in the ages 18 through 21.  There will be a classroom for those folks in this new building and that will be community outreach that we’ve never been able to do anything like that before.  And for the students, they will be with age appropriate.  If you’re 18, you don’t want to be at Holly Tree Elementary School, not even Laney High School.

These will be county students.  They have to educate the students up to age 21 by law, but where are they going to do it.  So this will be a designed classroom where they can practice work skills.  It has a kitchen too.  There will be a chance for our special education kids to go in and observe and help.  It will be a wonderful feature.  I don’t have to tell you that Eleanor Wright was pushing for that.  It’s going to be grand.

Lack:    Will they finish at age 21 whatever…

Burton:    Then they go out of the system and we hope maybe into a group home.

Lack:    Or work environment.

Burton:    Yes, a work environment and going home to a group home rather than home to their family where the idea is to normalize them into their own life as much as possible.

Lack:    Yes, that sounds really good.  There’s so much going on, I’m glad we’re doing this commemorative project.  We may eventually make a video and put clips in.

Burton:    You never know where the light is going to lead.  It’s been exciting working here from when we used to share the building with psychology if you can imagine that.

Lack:    In fact, I have an interview scheduled for Wednesday with Michael Bradley.

Burton:    Oh yes, he was in that building.  Bill Overman came and John Williams was chair and his office was in now where the dean’s office is.  He kept his Cayman in a room on the second floor with a Dutch door so you could see these little alligator like things roaming around.  They had a lot more room than we have now because even just with education, we have faculty in four different buildings.  Way back then we could have psychology and education in King Hall together. 

Lack:    Then it just got too big.  Psychology moved out I guess.

Burton:    Well they went over when social behavioral sciences were new.

Lack:    Well it’s been great talking to you.

Burton:    Well I’m glad that you had the chance to do that.  Glad you asked me.

Lack:    We’ll stay in touch.

Burton:    If you have any other questions, just holler.